| 01:28:35 | stvn: | Schuyler: you awake? |
| 06:01:51 | Schuyler: | stvn: I am now! |
| 06:03:17 | MZM: | Schuyler: too late... |
| 06:04:39 | stvn: | never |
| 06:05:31 | stvn: | Schuyler: you were actively promoting the geodata committee, so I joined, but did you already have ideas how to continue from here? |
| 06:06:11 | tbowden: | Geodata? Please ramp it up for Sydney. Schuyler, would you like to be on a panel for Syd? |
| 06:06:27 | tbowden: | unilateral offer on my part but I don't think anyone will object! |
| 06:08:41 | tbowden: | High level, govt policy makers if we can swing it |
| 06:17:55 | crschmidt: | http://www.flickr.com/photos/crschmidt/sets/72157607880167906/ -- finally finished uploading my kruger photos |
| 06:17:56 | sigq: | Title: Kruger National Park, 2008 - a set on Flickr ( at www.flickr.com ) |
| 06:19:36 | stvn: | : ) |
| 06:20:47 | stvn: | kruger is very brownish |
| 06:21:03 | crschmidt: | yes |
| 06:21:51 | stvn: | http://www.flickr.com/photos/crschmidt/2936270712/in/set-72157607880167906/ is a waterbuck |
| 06:21:53 | sigq: | Title: Antelope on Flickr - Photo Sharing! ( at www.flickr.com ) |
| 06:22:48 | stvn: | hm I like the hino picture |
| 06:27:33 | crschmidt: | thx, updated |
| 06:30:29 | stvn: | nice set of animals |
| 06:40:57 | crschmidt: | stvn: is http://www.flickr.com/photos/31368575@N02/ you? |
| 06:40:58 | sigq: | Title: Flickr: Photos & Video from stvno ( at www.flickr.com ) |
| 06:41:16 | stvn: | yes, I lost my password on my other account which I used to test flickr |
| 06:41:26 | stvn: | I quite like it, so I decided to create aserious account |
| 06:42:05 | crschmidt: | gotcha |
| 06:58:22 | darkblue_B: | stvn: hello |
| 07:00:06 | stvn: | hi darkblue_B |
| 07:01:17 | darkblue_B: | stvn: unfortunately, I dont have much good news from the San Francisco Bay Area on geo data |
| 07:02:08 | darkblue_B: | although the Bay Area Automated Mapping Assoc, BAAMA filed suit and won against a county that was witholding/charging high prices fro its public data |
| 07:02:19 | darkblue_B: | that court case set an important precedent |
| 07:02:23 | darkblue_B: | but with that said.. |
| 07:02:45 | darkblue_B: | I sat in on a few monthly meetnigs last year, of regional GIS officers for local govt |
| 07:02:55 | darkblue_B: | they were trying to put together a shared resource |
| 07:03:16 | darkblue_B: | it dragged on for a long while.. they got a rep from Google, who offered to host even |
| 07:03:35 | darkblue_B: | I lost track.. and I heard last month that t was disbanded without success |
| 07:04:14 | darkblue_B: | I dont understand how completely stuck these govt agencies are |
| 07:04:16 | stvn: | hm |
| 07:04:50 | stvn: | I thought .us was far more advanced in open geodata than .eu |
| 07:04:51 | darkblue_B: | meanwhile, there are Homeland Security mandates, with a budget I assume |
| 07:05:19 | darkblue_B: | .. they are puttng together an internal network of data based on ESRI servers |
| 07:05:42 | darkblue_B: | but I imagine that drags on through laziness.. I dont know |
| 07:06:04 | darkblue_B: | eu vs us.. there is a huge amount of data available now |
| 07:06:25 | darkblue_B: | covering far more population and geographic area |
| 07:06:33 | darkblue_B: | it is true... |
| 07:06:59 | darkblue_B: | geo-politically, the eu has a lot of previous history to overcome.. military suspicion and such |
| 07:07:39 | darkblue_B: | and a history of state ownership.. the US has a history of public access to govt data, in many cases |
| 07:08:00 | crschmidt: | stvn: At a federal level, geodata in the US is very open |
| 07:08:17 | crschmidt: | At lower government levels, it depends a lot on where you are. States/local governments all take very different approaches. |
| 07:08:53 | stvn: | right |
| 07:09:08 | : | <_wolf_> yeah geodata co-operation is not so trivial in Europe |
| 07:09:23 | stvn: | what I find here in .nl is that local governments have no clue how to share their data |
| 07:09:35 | : | <_wolf_> there was also some problems with sharing sea-navigational data too |
| 07:09:39 | stvn: | even for paid access, they just don't have the expertise |
| 07:10:06 | crschmidt: | It's not really a triial problem to answer: I mean, the main reason OSGeo has repeatedly fallen down in this regard is specifically because we haven't put together a good way for people to give us their geodata and let us host it, or to help others host their data. |
| 07:10:20 | : | <_wolf_> in .fi they take a snapshot of their db but it costs a fortune to get full data :( |
| 07:12:14 | : | * stvn thinks the data hosting is an interesting approach |
| 07:12:18 | tbowden: | Geodata sharing is starting to happen in AU/NZ. The QLD govt is advocating cc'ing most govt data |
| 07:13:02 | tbowden: | geodata hosting is interesting, but plenty of pitfalls |
| 07:13:24 | tbowden: | cost sinks, performance issues, caching etc |
| 07:13:42 | darkblue_B: | OSGeo doesnt have the capacity to host, as I understand it |
| 07:13:43 | : | <_wolf_> in .fi there is some data sharing, but mostly between government agencies... there is limited raster data sharing. some cities offer some limited data |
| 07:13:47 | tbowden: | lots of hardware, and then you have to convince someone to pay |
| 07:14:01 | tbowden: | OSGeo shouldn't be in that business |
| 07:14:28 | stvn: | tbowden: I agree, I don't think osgeo should host the data, at least not for free, but we could make it easier for orgs to setup their data |
| 07:14:48 | tbowden: | but I'm sure there are plenty of OSGeo related firms that would offer services in that arena. |
| 07:14:56 | stvn: | similar to the osgeo4w and opengeo dvds |
| 07:15:33 | tbowden: | Hosting Geodata takes way more than that. Massive infrastructure and business issues to solve on a case by case basis |
| 07:16:07 | stvn: | tbh we host geodata here the infrastructure isn't that massive if you don't have massive amounts of data |
| 07:16:19 | tbowden: | non trivial exercise, which is why it often gets put in the too hard basket. |
| 07:16:37 | tbowden: | stvn: even with small amounts of data, there are significant business issues |
| 07:16:48 | crschmidt: | tbowden: Huh? What 'significant business issues'? |
| 07:16:57 | tbowden: | privacy, service levels, oversight |
| 07:17:04 | tbowden: | and so on. |
| 07:17:04 | crschmidt: | Um. |
| 07:17:07 | : | * crschmidt thinks he's confused. |
| 07:17:22 | : | * stvn thinks tbowden overrates the difficulty |
| 07:17:28 | crschmidt: | I have a shapefile describing the set of abandoned cranberry bogs. |
| 07:17:39 | tbowden: | having been through the WA govt building a whole of govt sdi, I'm painfully aware of just how many corner issues crop up |
| 07:17:39 | crschmidt: | The data is licensed such that I can republish it, giving credit to MassGIS. |
| 07:17:51 | tbowden: | so many that they're not really corner issues |
| 07:17:53 | crschmidt: | I don't see how publishing that shapefile with an HTML description page is a hard problem |
| 07:18:01 | tbowden: | it's not just a data licensing issue |
| 07:18:52 | stvn: | serving your data as google tiles is for many organisations enough |
| 07:18:52 | crschmidt: | Okay, so what are the other issues I'm missing? |
| 07:18:56 | tbowden: | vetting of attributes, updating, sharing different attribute data with different consumers, custodianship v service provision between different agencies |
| 07:19:07 | crschmidt: | You're talking about a different problem than I am |
| 07:19:15 | tbowden: | whole heap of workflow issues |
| 07:19:24 | stvn: | tbowden: don't try to tackle all options at once, start with the simple stuff |
| 07:19:25 | crschmidt: | Currently, the problem that I see for most organizations is that the data they *already have* -- data that isn't changing, data that will never change -- is not findable |
| 07:19:25 | tbowden: | end up the same issue unless you're doing a one off |
| 07:19:49 | crschmidt: | The reason for that is that these organizations simply don't know how to publish their data so that other people can find it |
| 07:19:57 | stvn: | http://kaart.geodan.nl/ <- very simple setup |
| 07:19:58 | sigq: | Title: Postcodekaart Nederland ( at kaart.geodan.nl ) |
| 07:19:59 | crschmidt: | Solving *that* problem -- making the existing published data accessible/findable |
| 07:20:06 | crschmidt: | is the first step, imho |
| 07:20:16 | tbowden: | yes, but there the custodians aren't the ones with the impetus to share. Gov'ts are cautious in how they handle those types of issues |
| 07:20:44 | tbowden: | sure, at one level the problem is simple; the tech level |
| 07:21:11 | crschmidt: | Well, no, but one aspect of the problem -- the first one to work towards -- is relatively simple. "Make finding existing geodata easier" |
| 07:21:19 | tbowden: | but business rational for spending ongoing money needs to be sorted before agencies typically get funding for this sort of thing. At least that's my experience |
| 07:21:46 | crschmidt: | There are thousands of megs of free geodata sitting on the web that could help people solve existing problems |
| 07:21:51 | crschmidt: | But finding that geodata is hard |
| 07:22:01 | crschmidt: | imho, at least linking people who care to that geodata that exists is the first step |
| 07:22:10 | tbowden: | existing geodata? Has to be vetted for privacy, accuracy, service levels ( none likes to look incompetent if the service is shoddy( |
| 07:22:21 | stvn: | tbowden: I don't think it is our task to solve the business rational for organisations, although we could provide some reasons |
| 07:22:57 | stvn: | in .eu the inspire-directive forces govt. to share their data, so the rationale is already there |
| 07:23:05 | tbowden: | it's not osgeo's problem, sure, but until those types of problems get solved, nothing happens |
| 07:23:12 | MZM: | stvn: lol |
| 07:23:13 | crschmidt: | tbowden: I respectfully disagree. That simply isn't the job that needs to be solved by an organization like OSGeo. Those are things that have to be solved by an organization before *they publish*, but once data is published, those problems aren't ours |
| 07:23:24 | stvn: | MZM: I know ; ) |
| 07:23:41 | crschmidt: | If you'er saying "Data that is published is insufficient", and "OSGeo should help increase the total amount of data published", both of those are true, and all of your statement start to apply |
| 07:23:49 | tbowden: | ok, so crschmidt: I'm saying it's *not* osgeo's problem to solve, but until it is, nothing happens |
| 07:23:56 | : | * MZM istrying imagine how .lv geospatial agency will be giving some data away. LOL |
| 07:24:00 | crschmidt: | But things area *already* happing |
| 07:24:02 | crschmidt: | happening |
| 07:24:41 | stvn: | MZM: I couldn't believe the .nl govt would do that last year, but things are changing here, fast |
| 07:24:51 | tbowden: | yes, because people are starting to realise that in one way or another we will end up there, particularly down under, but the going is slow. It's a different mindset and that takes time |
| 07:24:57 | stvn: | OSM has a major impact in .nl ( due to the quality of their data here ) |
| 07:25:59 | tbowden: | crschmidt: miss worded. Until the govt agencies solve the problem, nothing happens. Changes my meaning a little |
| 07:26:15 | crschmidt: | At this point, it wouldn't matter if every gov. organization on the planet put their data on webpages |
| 07:26:22 | MZM: | stvn: some year( s ) a go OSM had roads in .lv only where I go fishing etc. :P |
| 07:26:26 | crschmidt: | MassGIS has done that, but no one in the OSGeo space takes advantage of it |
| 07:26:34 | crschmidt: | The reason is because no one is aware it's available |
| 07:26:46 | crschmidt: | Demonstrating that there is worth to publishing your geodata is important |
| 07:26:51 | crschmidt: | and the worth only comes if people can find it |
| 07:26:56 | stvn: | true |
| 07:27:15 | tbowden: | findability is another related problem |
| 07:27:36 | tbowden: | MZM: .lv? |
| 07:27:41 | crschmidt: | latvia, I assume |
| 07:27:48 | tbowden: | Ah |
| 07:27:51 | MZM: | crschmidt: correct |
| 07:27:56 | crschmidt: | In my opinion, findability is an approachable problem, and starting on that would allow OSGeo to present evidence to organizations that they can participate in a shared web of data |
| 07:28:03 | crschmidt: | Until they see that, there isn't any point, imho |
| 07:28:30 | tbowden: | findability is a metadata issue, which is thorny as hell when you get into it |
| 07:29:03 | tbowden: | ticheler: metadata and geodata findability? |
| 07:29:14 | : | * stvn remembers eds talk where he stated that metadata is the wrong way to go |
| 07:29:17 | : | * crschmidt shakes his head and wanders of |
| 07:30:52 | : | * stvn will see what the opengeodata groups ideas are, but he is in the don't look what is hard, but do it easy camp |
| 07:31:01 | tbowden: | Note to the wary: I'm far from convinced that *formal* metadata* solves the issue. But *any* data about data is metadata. Data and metadata are often interchangeable depending on what you have and what you're looking for |
| 07:32:11 | crschmidt: | I think that http://wms-sites.com/ has the right idea. |
| 07:32:12 | sigq: | Title: WMS Sites ( at wms-sites.com ) |
| 07:32:25 | : | * acuster realizes there's a first step in finding data: merely imagining that it could exist |
| 07:34:09 | tbowden: | ie, data: Ed's grocery store, 123 main st. Metadata: directions on how to get there, photo of store, customer recommendations etc. |
| 07:34:09 | tbowden: | Data: Map showing Ed's grocery store. Metadata: Street address of Ed's grocery store. Everything is data *and* metadata |
| 07:34:35 | tbowden: | depends on what data you have, and what data you want. |
| 07:35:29 | tbowden: | formal metadata systems typically take a static view of that. Not a good approach. It needs to by dynamic. There is also no need to divide between spatial and non spatial data/metadata in a workable system |
| 07:37:11 | stvn: | oui |
| 07:38:03 | tbowden: | crschmidt: I don't think http://wms-sites.com/ is the right idea. It's a start to helping define the problem perhaps, but looks more like the equivalent of search 0.1 many years ago. We need to go much further |
| 07:38:04 | sigq: | Title: WMS Sites ( at wms-sites.com ) |
| 07:39:03 | crschmidt: | tbowden: so we should skip the first step and jump right to the end? |
| 07:39:46 | : | * stvn points to http://www.endoftheinternet.com/ |
| 07:39:53 | tbowden: | no, but the problem is big. We need to understand that what we're doing is not solving the problem, but helping to delineate it |
| 07:41:09 | tbowden: | Just chucking a bunch of govt geodata on the interweb isn't going to cut it, for govt or data consumers |
| 07:42:02 | tbowden: | there needs to be a better understanding of what the issues are at the data custodian level before we will see any real progress. That takes time and money. |
| 07:45:47 | tbowden: | crschmidt: note: I'm not advocating govt's don't dump data on the web. Just think that won't get us very far in itself. It's not sustainable. |
| 07:45:47 | tbowden: | Govt needs to look at maintainability of systems they develop, and for data that forces them to think about data versioning and how to handle it, custodian's ongoing responsibilities ( ->funding ) and all the other issues I mentioned. They can't do it without addressing those. |
| 07:48:53 | tbowden: | Govt's need to have a change of mindset to understand they are the custodians of *our* data. At the moment they tend to think they're the *owners* of the data, at least as far as my limited experience goes. This is becoming more so as data becomes easier to generate or capture and harder to manage, as opposed to years ago when data capture was relatively more expensive, and hence data volumes typically much lower. |
| 07:50:16 | darkblue_B: | tbowden: hmm yes, and |
| 07:50:53 | darkblue_B: | I would add that data is always in a signal theory continuum.. |
| 07:52:50 | darkblue_B: | precision and timeliness are the 'expensive' sides.. where their opposite are the, hmm, tendancy of entropy |
| 07:53:47 | darkblue_B: | so all data will be somewhere on the precision/timeliness spectrum.. and will take 'energy' or cost to create |
| 07:53:55 | darkblue_B: | in markets, that cost has to be expressed |
| 07:54:36 | darkblue_B: | however, in a social contract, govt provides services as infrastructure |
| 07:55:04 | darkblue_B: | also, researchers create by-product, often quite good, that is easier and easier to capture |
| 07:55:26 | darkblue_B: | another phenomenon is collective will to make maps, eg OSM |
| 07:55:29 | tbowden: | acuster: you don't always need to imagine it could exist. Maybe even mostly you don't need to. So long as you ask q like "what can you tell me about Ed's grocery store, or 123 Main St. Let the metadata links show you what can exist. |
| 07:56:10 | darkblue_B: | with all that long winded stuff, I say that Schuyler's speech, though popular, is not deep enough to really tacle the problem.. |
| 07:56:24 | darkblue_B: | althoug it was a perfect political speech, popular and driving to an end |
| 07:57:33 | bitnerd: | Schuyler's speach wasn't supposed to be deep enough to tackle the problem -- it was supposed to be inspirational to get others to dig deeper into areas that scratch their itch |
| 07:58:02 | acuster: | anyone who tells me I'm awesome is giving a good speech |
| 07:58:36 | bitnerd: | on that end -- if anyone does have ideas of substance -- and the cycles to help act on them -- please let me know |
| 07:58:58 | stvn: | acuster: awesome but useless |
| 07:59:01 | tbowden: | darkblue_B: The precision/timeliness spectrum is one that govt's get very concerned about. They have a certain take on that issue as they are often expected to be authoritative sources of data. How to serve data that is questionable is a real issue for them. Back to the cost issue there. |
| 07:59:01 | stvn: | ; ) |
| 07:59:01 | tbowden: | And yes, they need to develop a fresh understanding of what their social charter is. How can we get govt's to be *our* servants? And not something that is foreign and alien that we want to rail against, but getting off topic now :- ) |
| 07:59:45 | darkblue_B: | np |
| 07:59:58 | darkblue_B: | I'm keen on this |
| 08:00:14 | tbowden: | darkblue_B: yes, popular and inspirational, but there is a limit to what you can do in the time he had |
| 08:00:44 | darkblue_B: | after I saw the TeleAtlas demo at Oracle World, have had to re-adjust my thinking |
| 08:01:09 | acuster: | no, no, that's my software---me, I stay, awesome |
| 08:01:10 | darkblue_B: | the private sector now has data that is better than anyone's, with huge capacity to further it |
| 08:01:29 | darkblue_B: | better than govt, better collection in real time |
| 08:01:47 | darkblue_B: | hence the EU anti-trust negotiation |
| 08:01:53 | tbowden: | darkblue_B: not in all parts of the world. In AU the govt data is the canonical source for all |
| 08:02:16 | darkblue_B: | ok |
| 08:02:26 | stvn: | thinks .au doesn't have much geodata anyways ( according to yahoo ) |
| 08:02:28 | stvn: | :p |
| 08:03:16 | tbowden: | was blown away to see that to be honest. I didn't think we ranked so poorly in priorities :-( |
| 08:03:34 | darkblue_B: | they know where the oil is offshore! there is a priority |
| 08:04:11 | tbowden: | Ah yes, oil. Amazing what impact it has. Starts wars, stops wars, kills millions, feeds millions. |
| 08:04:53 | MZM: | gives power to tsars |
| 08:04:55 | darkblue_B: | money.. lots of money |
| 08:11:07 | : | * tbowden waves at seven. Still enjoying the wilds? |
| 09:07:54 | seven: | Hey tbowden, came back yesterday. Trying to catch up now. |
| 09:08:23 | : | * Schuyler blinks |
| 09:08:26 | : | * Schuyler waves |
| 09:08:40 | Schuyler: | tbowden: sure, everyone knows I love a good panel. I don't want to hog the stage, though ; ) |
| 09:08:55 | : | * seven wonders why on earth people write so many emails. This is mad. |
| 09:09:14 | seven: | myabe because the world is so big... |
| 09:11:17 | tbowden: | Schuyler: No need to hog, just get a bit of life into things. Wake up the audience. Nothing worse than a dull panel |
| 09:11:37 | Schuyler: | :-D |
| 09:14:29 | tbowden: | seven: changed our minds repeatedly over the code sprint ideas. I know you're interested in that one. Still in a big state of flux. |
| 09:16:58 | seven: | any good reason to still read all the foss4g2009 mails? |
| 09:17:10 | tbowden: | no |
| 09:17:29 | : | * seven selects read on the folder. |
| 09:17:51 | tbowden: | petty stuff mostly, and debate about what we should do with with the codes sprint. Before, after, where. No decision yet |
| 09:18:15 | seven: | no hurry |
| 09:22:23 | hobu: | Gary Watry died. He was active in the MapWindow and other open source gis communities http://www.legacy.com/tallahassee/GB/GuestbookView.aspx?PersonId=117701823 |
| 09:22:24 | sigq: | Title: Guest Book - Gary Lee Watry ( at www.legacy.com ) |
| 10:10:22 | FrankW: | hobu: any thoughts on the request to SAC to install wiktionary software? |
| 10:10:31 | FrankW: | http://trac.osgeo.org/osgeo/ticket/188 |
| 10:10:32 | sigq: | Title: #188 ( Wiktionary software installation on "osgeo2" ) - OSGeo - Trac ( at trac.osgeo.org ) |
| 10:11:27 | FrankW: | Would you consider a more proactive role in getting SAC tickets addressed or else indicating that no one from SAC seems to want to take them on? |
| 10:11:39 | FrankW: | Now some of these requests seem to fall into a void with no response. |
| 10:17:55 | : | * FrankW sneaks away. |
| 10:55:18 | stvn: | Schuyler: nice one on the emperor : ) |
| 10:56:43 | Schuyler: | actually I was just blowing smoke |
| 10:57:14 | Schuyler: | if you read the Wikipedia article about the fall of Constantinople, it turns out that the emperor was completely outnumbered and in a total panic |
| 10:59:28 | stvn: | : ) |
| 11:20:32 | stvn: | I guess you noticed the discussion which spun from my question |
| 11:20:34 | Schuyler: | stvn: so, the question was "I joined the geodata list, whatnow?" |
| 11:20:42 | stvn: | oui |
| 11:20:53 | Schuyler: | and the answer is "I have no clue!" |
| 11:21:20 | Schuyler: | for a while we were trying to provide hosting for free geodata on Telascience, but TS has proved a bit flaky for that |
| 11:21:38 | Schuyler: | I think that there is still a real need for a metadata repo identifying free data sources and making them easy to search |
| 11:21:54 | crschmidt: | but clearly there is some disagreement on that |
| 11:22:21 | : | * stvn is with crschmidt there |
| 11:22:22 | Schuyler: | someone, I think, needs to take a lead on getting GeoNetwork or something similar set up somewhere and then egging OSGeo members to start the data entry process |
| 11:22:28 | Schuyler: | <- MHO |
| 11:22:36 | Schuyler: | crschmidt: go on? |
| 11:22:49 | Schuyler: | I mean, that's one starting point |
| 11:23:01 | crschmidt: | Schuyler: did you not read the earlier conversation with tbodwen? |
| 11:23:04 | crschmidt: | tbowden* |
| 11:23:08 | Schuyler: | sorry I didn't read it all |
| 11:23:17 | : | * Schuyler does so |
| 11:23:23 | stvn: | it is a very interesting discussion, I recommend to read it all |
| 11:23:49 | Schuyler: | mind you, I was in the process of trying to write my blog post about FOSS4G, now over a week late ; ) |
| 11:24:44 | : | * stvn hasn't done so either, still working on pictures |
| 11:25:11 | Schuyler: | ok, I need to digest this and get back to you then : ) |
| 11:25:25 | Schuyler: | I just wanted to get people started talking about it again because the conversation had largely died |
| 11:25:33 | Schuyler: | and I think our community still has a huge blindspot there |
| 11:25:38 | Schuyler: | focused as we are on writing code |
| 11:25:51 | Schuyler: | I don't actually pretend to know what the answer is |
| 11:26:26 | : | * stvn is aware of that and since he is not writing code anymore I'd like to join other areas of osgeo |
| 11:26:59 | stvn: | so geodata sounds like a fun area to kick around |
| 11:27:13 | Schuyler: | *applause* : ) |
| 11:37:23 | : | * stvn is walking through his foss4g photoset and the only ones that are reasonably good are the blackmailable-ones :S |
| 11:39:02 | : | * Schuyler starts writing his lightning talk |
| 11:39:22 | Schuyler: | "First off, thanks to the program committee, who showed us *last year* how to have a good time..." |
| 11:40:03 | stvn: | : ) |
| 11:41:02 | : | * stvn notices a sharp increase in the quality of the pictures with his new camera over time |
| 11:45:05 | crschmidt: | really? |
| 11:46:10 | stvn: | yeah I just had it when foss4g started and esp. the indoor pictures suck in the beginning, after two weeks of photographing the pictures turnout much better |
| 11:46:45 | stvn: | still I'm not yet satisfied with indoor pictures, not sure why my compact is doing a better job still |
| 11:47:35 | stvn: | also using a ( d )slr takes sometime to get used to again ( haven't used one in years ) |
| 11:49:22 | crschmidt: | oh |
| 11:49:28 | crschmidt: | i read 'increase' as 'decrease' |
| 11:49:42 | stvn: | heh |
| 11:49:56 | crschmidt: | for what it's worth, I picked up a 4x improvement in picture quality ( measured as 'number of pictures kept s. thrown out ) by getting a 1.8 lens instead of a 3.5 lens |
| 11:50:05 | crschmidt: | when everything i shoot is indoors, 3.5 just doesn't cut it |
| 11:52:05 | : | * stvn is aware of that and has his next lens lined up: http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08092201nikkor_50mm_1_4glens.asp |
| 11:52:46 | : | * stvn is h |
| 11:53:06 | crschmidt: | heh |
| 11:53:16 | : | * stvn is glad that crschmidt produced so many good pictures and stole one to use as flickr profile picture |
| 11:53:32 | crschmidt: | the 1.4 is nice, but 3x as pricy ( at leeast in canon-land ) |
| 11:54:02 | stvn: | 383 euro/439 usd according to dpreview |
| 11:54:23 | crschmidt: | yeah, and you can get the 1.8 for $110 |
| 11:54:31 | crschmidt: | so 4x as pricy : ) |
| 11:54:38 | stvn: | : ) |
| 11:54:45 | : | * stvn goes to check if there is |
| 11:54:54 | stvn: | a good 1.8 50mm |
| 11:55:24 | crschmidt: | I was just looking at http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/5018daf.htm |
| 11:55:29 | sigq: | Title: Nikon 50mm f/1.8 D Review ( at www.kenrockwell.com ) |
| 11:55:49 | : | * stvn needs builtin autofocus motor |
| 11:56:23 | stvn: | It won't autofocus on the D40 or D40x <- hm |
| 11:56:40 | crschmidt: | ah |
| 17:30:08 | : | * tbowden returns from the dead. grimaces at crschmidt and Schuyler as he re-reads the conversation from late last night, along with catching up on wankers. Interesting that some who should get it still don't. And still pondering geodata, life, the universe and everything |
| 17:32:27 | : | * crschmidt wonders why grimacing? |
| 17:32:35 | crschmidt: | I didn't mean to misinterpret what you said |
| 17:33:17 | crschmidt: | I was just saying that it sounded like you disagreed that aggregation of existing geodata should be osgeo's highest priority, or even that it helps the situation; maybe that's not what you felt, but that's what it sounded like to me |
| 17:33:27 | : | * crschmidt is geotagging photos |
| 17:33:39 | crschmidt: | i've bumped my ungeotagged count from 1150 down to 490 |
| 17:34:16 | tbowden: | I think I made a few errors. |
| 17:34:36 | tbowden: | data is what you want to know. metadata is what you already know. |
| 17:34:48 | tbowden: | In my examples I put them around the other way I think |
| 17:35:01 | tbowden: | but the basic idea is still there |
| 17:35:45 | tbowden: | aggregation of geodata is fine, but I don't think it solves the issues. |
| 17:38:11 | tbowden: | If I search on 123 main st, along with the usual results we get now, I should see the local planning charts and instruments, traffic feeds, local council motion re: 125 main st, proposed sewer upgrade for back alley and so on. We're a long way from that, but it's where we should be trying to get there. |
| 17:41:02 | crschmidt: | i guess I either don't understand or don't see this as fitting within the goals of the geodata committee at all. |
| 17:41:17 | crschmidt: | I mean, what you just described sounds to me exactly like what everyblock is. |
| 17:43:03 | tbowden: | not sure what it has to do with the geodata committee either, but unless we understand the spatial problem, we won't have a clear job for the geodata committee maybe, except to in principle promote "freeing up geodata" |
| 17:43:44 | tbowden: | crschmidt: everyblock? |
| 17:44:40 | : | * tbowden reading about everyblock |
| 17:45:08 | crschmidt: | sure. http://chicago.everyblock.com/locations/neighborhoods/ford-city/ |
| 17:45:10 | sigq: | Title: Ford City news | EveryBlock Chicago ( at chicago.everyblock.com ) |
| 17:45:20 | crschmidt: | news. Building permits. Health code violations. |
| 17:45:30 | crschmidt: | real estate. lost and found. photos. |
| 17:45:40 | crschmidt: | find everything geo about any place |
| 17:47:27 | crschmidt: | within the next 12 months, I'm pretty sure the software behind everyblock will becceome open source as a condition of their grant |
| 17:48:09 | tbowden: | interesting development. Will be interesting to see how far it can be pushed. |
| 17:54:19 | : | * tbowden will ponder for a while before contributing again he thinks |
| 17:56:52 | crschmidt: | well, I'm ust trying to figure out a practical direction for people wanting to push forward on the geodata committee |
| 17:57:07 | crschmidt: | I think that the practical direction is twofold -- getting data and finding data |
| 17:57:32 | crschmidt: | Encouraging organizations to solve the internal questions that lead to answering the former means producing the latter so they're convinced there is value |
| 17:58:48 | crschmidt: | I don't think there's an easier or more valuable short term goal |
| 17:59:10 | crschmidt: | at some point, we'll run into organizations that need help solving the internal questions which lead to publishing data |
| 18:00:06 | crschmidt: | But I think that's a second order problem |
| 18:50:05 | adamhill_FL: | crschmidt: there is also the problem of people that have free data but won't give it to you : ) |
| 18:51:45 | crschmidt: | Also a second order problem. |
| 18:52:22 | crschmidt: | People who have free data they aren't sharing *intentionally* usually have some reassons, but nothing is more convincing than demonstrating that by not sharing they're being left out of the loop. |
| 18:53:55 | crschmidt: | So, creating a convincing argument that not sharing is stupid is key. If the reasons they're not sharing are technical, we can also work to establish ways to help solve that problem. |
| 18:58:06 | darkblue_B: | ++ |
| 19:03:04 | crschmidt: | ( Stupid is the wrong word. "not ideal" is more politic. ) |
| 20:10:21 | CIA-30: | osgeo: shansen * r1224 /livedvd/ ( 33 files in 4 dirs ): Initial checking of the debian-folder for creating a udig-deb-package. |
| 20:10:23 | sigq: | osgeofeed: Changeset [1224]: Initial checking of the debian-folder for creating a udig-deb-package. <http://trac.osgeo.org/osgeo/changeset/1224> |
| 21:03:21 | sigq: | osgeofeed: Changeset [1225]: Error in copyright file updated. <http://trac.osgeo.org/osgeo/changeset/1225> |
| 21:03:54 | CIA-30: | osgeo: shansen * r1225 /livedvd/udig/trunk/debian/copyright: Error in copyright file updated. |