| 00:44:27 | sigq: | osgeofeed: Ticket #323 ( task created ): gvSIG download server link <http://trac.osgeo.org/osgeo/ticket/323> |
| 05:16:11 | sigq: | osgeofeed: Ticket #323 ( task closed ): gvSIG download server link <http://trac.osgeo.org/osgeo/ticket/323#comment:2> |
| 08:50:14 | sigq: | osgeofeed: Ticket #257 ( task closed ): Redirect to gvSIG website <http://trac.osgeo.org/osgeo/ticket/257#comment:6> |
| 09:06:29 | jmckenna: | an excellent group of FOSS4G2010 submissions: http://www.osgeo.org/conference/rfp |
| 09:06:31 | sigq: | Title: Conference RFP | OSGeo.org ( at www.osgeo.org ) |
| 09:13:49 | TylerM: | right on |
| 09:19:07 | ajturner: | oooh, Beijing! |
| 09:26:42 | steko: | what is the general feeling about FOSS4G 2010 venue? |
| 09:28:32 | ajturner: | steko: I assume that the feeling is that a venue is good |
| 09:28:34 | ajturner: | : ) |
| 09:28:52 | steko: | : ) I think so! |
| 09:29:45 | steko: | but is there one of the proposed ones that already looks better? |
| 09:42:34 | FrankW: | I just looked through the Dutch proposal, and it looks pretty strong. |
| 09:49:09 | FrankW: | TylerM: Is your french good enough to address the request to info@osgeo from Virginie? |
| 09:51:03 | steko: | bye |
| 09:51:33 | : | * fsc7 loved barcelona proposal... |
| 09:53:30 | : | * hobu wonders if best and cheapest beer is on the criteria list |
| 09:53:32 | FrankW: | jsanz: Is the gvsig.osgeo.org redirect working properly? |
| 10:00:46 | ajturner: | I imagine the decision also needs to weigh in on the pure geographic location and impact of last 2 years in far-reaching southern hemisphere locales |
| 10:04:03 | FrankW: | ajturner: yes, I believe at least some of the committee members would like to see FOSS4G 2010 be in a "traditional center of FOSS4G development" ( ie. western europe or north america ). |
| 10:04:25 | FrankW: | This will make the Beijing bid a somewhat hard sell ( IMHO ). |
| 10:04:28 | ajturner: | FrankW: traditional, or at least closer to the geographic center of the global community |
| 10:04:40 | ajturner: | well, the flight-edge-cost/time center |
| 10:04:47 | ajturner: | agreed for 2010 |
| 10:05:02 | ajturner: | re: Beijing, though hard to beat the "Hosted in the Olympic Village" : ) |
| 10:05:34 | FrankW: | yes, well, I mean mostly within easy travel distance for a substantial part of the community. |
| 10:06:01 | FrankW: | I must concede Beijing has some appeal for me. If not selecting for 2010, I hope they will rebid later. |
| 10:08:32 | : | * fsc7 between Netherlands and Spain. Somewhere in Europe. |
| 11:05:50 | ajturner: | previously: Europe, NA, NA, Africa, Oceania, ... |
| 11:06:16 | ajturner: | nvmd - not surew why i put NA in there twice |
| 12:10:09 | FrankW: | TylerM: Is your french good enough to address the request to info@osgeo from Virginie? |
| 12:10:42 | TylerM: | hi.. just checking now |
| 12:10:52 | TylerM: | probably not : ) |
| 12:11:09 | FrankW: | Well, I'll leave it to you to reply and seek clarification. |
| 12:11:52 | TylerM: | no problem |
| 12:17:53 | TylerM: | FrankW: she just wants to update there entry in the SPD |
| 12:17:57 | TylerM: | seems it is update month : ) |
| 12:26:49 | TylerM: | CameronShorter: did you get tourhosts email settings on the list set okay? or do you need hand? |
| 14:12:42 | CameronShorter: | TylerM, I've subscribed TH on the foss4g list. I assume it is working for them now. |
| 14:13:20 | TylerM: | okay, great |
| 14:13:29 | TylerM: | did you remove their individual addresses too? |
| 14:14:02 | CameronShorter: | no, I didn't. I assume they can remove themselves if they want to. |
| 14:15:09 | TylerM: | right, okay.. sounds like they're set |
| 14:57:49 | FrankW: | pramsey: re: promoting foss4g to geo people, vs promoting foss4g to foss people, I'm flabbergasted at your opinion! |
| 14:58:32 | FrankW: | http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/marketing/2008-December/002032.html for those who are interested. |
| 14:58:33 | sigq: | Title: [Marketing] Exhibition Pack ( at lists.osgeo.org ) |
| 14:59:28 | TylerM: | yes lots of sparked interest in marketing this week : ) |
| 15:00:00 | FrankW: | I'm amazed when another intelligent person I respect ends up holding the exact opposite opinion to me! |
| 15:00:15 | pramsey: | FrankW, after a while one gets tired of talking to the geo people. |
| 15:00:24 | pramsey: | Always the same old story. |
| 15:00:47 | pramsey: | The OSS people are a breath of fresh air... "you can do that? neat!" |
| 15:01:16 | FrankW: | Well, I understand that, but it doesn't necessariliy follow that "selling" foss4g to them is a good investment. |
| 15:01:39 | crschmidt: | Hm |
| 15:02:34 | : | * TylerM just wants some brochures to hand out ;- ) hehe |
| 15:02:52 | crschmidt: | I think that selling geo to smart people is easy |
| 15:02:58 | pramsey: | Perhaps hobu is right and selling foss4g to anybody is not a good investment. |
| 15:03:31 | TylerM: | does that mean changing our mission statement? |
| 15:04:20 | pramsey: | I was responding mostly to DaveM's point that he had found selling to "geo" people was a dry hole. |
| 15:04:24 | pramsey: | I don't know that I disagree. |
| 15:04:41 | pramsey: | It certainly fit my emotional reaction to N years of that pursuit. |
| 15:04:47 | FrankW: | I read Dave's point as being that he had found tradeshows and conferences to be a poor investment. |
| 15:05:08 | FrankW: | But certainly I think DM Solutions tries to target non-traditional uses of geospatial technology. |
| 15:05:11 | pramsey: | "It begs another question too ... is targeting geospatial events really the best way to get to people? " |
| 15:05:14 | FrankW: | which no doubt makes sense. |
| 15:05:32 | pramsey: | I guess one's interpretation depends on whether the stress is on "geospatial" or "events". |
| 15:05:33 | FrankW: | "to get people" - do you mean users, buyers, developers? |
| 15:06:54 | pramsey: | People with money. |
| 15:07:08 | pramsey: | are there any other kind ( worth pursuing? ) |
| 15:07:22 | crschmidt: | Smart Developers who work for free. |
| 15:07:24 | FrankW: | some of us pursue end users for the pure joy of having our software used. |
| 15:07:36 | FrankW: | Some pursue developers to get stuff done. |
| 15:07:48 | FrankW: | But, I must concede people with money/business are attractive to me. |
| 15:08:41 | pramsey: | We can get the "pure joy" largely without any pursuit. |
| 15:09:00 | : | * crschmidt totally disagrees |
| 15:09:09 | FrankW: | In theory we can get more pure joy by actually pushing it. |
| 15:09:11 | pramsey: | And sadly I've only successfully pursued developers and got stuff done while holding a wad of cash. |
| 15:09:23 | crschmidt: | pramsey: really? I've not had that problem |
| 15:09:41 | crschmidt: | I guess this is the problem when you work with Java/C : ) |
| 15:10:08 | pramsey: | Right, but on the bright side: fewer hipster doofuses. : ) |
| 15:10:16 | FrankW: | lol |
| 15:10:24 | crschmidt: | a number of the improvements in OpenLayers have been made by users who were doing those developments 'for fun', and a larger number have been users who have done geospatial work for cash, but then done additional above/beyond Dev in OL for fun |
| 15:11:31 | crschmidt: | I'm still amazed that at every foss4g I go to, there are mre people who have never heard of OpenLayers, end up getting excited about it, and add themselves to the gallery 6 months later |
| 15:11:46 | pramsey: | what's OpenLayers? |
| 15:11:49 | pramsey: | does it rock? |
| 15:11:53 | crschmidt: | nope |
| 15:11:56 | crschmidt: | but it's pretty decent |
| 15:12:15 | crschmidt: | some guy once said that: OpenLayers, so good it works even when you screw up. |
| 15:12:28 | crschmidt: | ( pramsey, http://openlayers.org/pipermail/users/2007-September/002852.html ) |
| 15:12:29 | sigq: | Title: [OpenLayers-Users] Overlay Issue ( at openlayers.org ) |
| 15:14:07 | pramsey: | touch me |
| 15:14:10 | pramsey: | er, touche : ) |
| 15:15:21 | FrankW: | pramsey: so, promoting to open source people - how would you do that? OSCON? |
| 15:15:37 | pramsey: | no, LinuxWorld |
| 15:15:45 | pramsey: | Something more corporate than OSCON. |
| 15:15:50 | : | * hobu seems to be being tagged as curmudgeonly when it comes to marketing ; ) |
| 15:16:13 | : | * FrankW tags hobu as curmudgeonly in various other ways too! |
| 15:18:03 | pramsey: | is James Fee right, is OSGeo "becoming" something? or not becoming something? |
| 15:18:40 | hobu: | It just seems backward to me that we would use one of the hardest resources for us to obtain ( $$$ ) and try and exchange it for something that happens as a result of the natural progression of highly active and influential projects anyway |
| 15:19:42 | FrankW: | I'm not very familiar with James Fee's theory on OSGeo. |
| 15:20:08 | hobu: | My opinion is likely a minority one, but "marketing" and open source software seems akin to pushing a rope |
| 15:20:29 | hobu: | ( scare quotes because of the poor definition of marketing when it comes to OS ) |
| 15:20:59 | FrankW: | hobu: I can see why you might think marketing is not necessary, but I'm not sure what you mean about pushing on a rope. |
| 15:21:00 | pramsey: | http://blog.cleverelephant.ca/2008/11/what-is-osgeo-becoming.html |
| 15:21:01 | sigq: | Title: Paul Ramsey: What is OSGeo becoming? ( at blog.cleverelephant.ca ) |
| 15:21:09 | pramsey: | self promotion, thy name is ramsey |
| 15:21:15 | FrankW: | Do you feel that marketing os stuff isn't likely to work at all? |
| 15:22:53 | pramsey: | the question you asked of me, about who the target is, is pretty key |
| 15:23:06 | pramsey: | "decision makers"? |
| 15:23:09 | FrankW: | Other than the point about logos with which I sympathize hugely, I don't see that James has made much of a point. |
| 15:23:24 | FrankW: | Other than perhaps that we don't seem to do much. |
| 15:23:41 | hobu: | wen don't seem to do much *that matters to James* |
| 15:23:46 | pramsey: | he's just expressing a frustration that open source ( gis ) "presents badly" in a corporate environment |
| 15:23:58 | FrankW: | Well, there seems to be a fair amount of agreement that we want to market to decision makes. |
| 15:24:03 | hobu: | and its his fault, not ours : ) |
| 15:24:05 | FrankW: | That seems like a reasonable objective for OSGeo. |
| 15:24:23 | pramsey: | and what are decision makers looking for that we can provide? |
| 15:24:42 | pramsey: | support contracts? training? ( blah blah? ) |
| 15:25:08 | hobu: | decision makers want trust |
| 15:25:20 | pramsey: | is this a persuadable cohort, or are we just throwing ourselves against a wall? |
| 15:25:36 | pramsey: | really, no matter what we do, we won't be ESRI/Oracle/Microsoft. noone will. |
| 15:25:37 | FrankW: | Our "job" is to convince them that FOSS4G can solve some of their needs - one of those being trust. |
| 15:26:31 | FrankW: | I don't think we need to be ESRI/Oracle/Microsoft to convince decision makes that FOSS4G can play a role in their enterprise. |
| 15:26:48 | FrankW: | Even if we have to start by stressing how well we can work alongside their ESRI/Oracle/Microsoft solutions. |
| 15:26:53 | hobu: | like trusting you're not another I Want Sandy http://www.htmlist.com/rants/trusting-in-the-cloud-the-fallout-when-web-20-apps-disappear/ |
| 15:26:54 | sigq: | Title: Trusting In The Cloud: The Fallout When Web 2.0 Apps Disappear :: HTMList.com ( at www.htmlist.com ) |
| 15:27:18 | hobu: | ( I know not quite the same thing, but an interesting lesson nonetheless ) |
| 15:29:12 | FrankW: | Certainly, not putting your enterprise in the hands of someone elses "business reprioritization" is one of the things I try to promote as a benefit of open source. |
| 15:29:45 | tomkralidis: | pramsey: I'm going to setup a site visit to bond place for this Friday |
| 15:29:46 | pramsey: | so, to bring this back around to hobu... |
| 15:29:59 | pramsey: | the purpose of "marketing" is to create an impression of trustworthiness. |
| 15:30:04 | hobu: | yes, but you are also at the mercy of people's interest in the project. If that goes away, while you do have the option to pick it up, it is likely not practical in terms of money and expertise |
| 15:30:16 | pramsey: | thanks tomkralidis |
| 15:30:35 | tomkralidis: | I'll bring my digital camera and take some pics just in case too |
| 15:30:46 | hobu: | tomkralidis: cool. Can't wait to freeze my a** off in Toronto in a couple of months : ) |
| 15:31:07 | tomkralidis: | hopefully we won't have to call the army! |
| 15:33:17 | hobu: | and to relate to pramsey's presentation a couple of weeks ago... *which* decisions makers is important too. The decision makers deciding how to make the *next* software platforms and infrastructures, or the ones who built the last generation? |
| 15:33:34 | hobu: | the ones building the next generation are already using our stuff |
| 15:34:38 | FrankW: | I think there are lots of people building next generation applications with a geospatial component that are not very aware of their open source options. I'd like to reach more of them. |
| 15:35:11 | FrankW: | ( I thinking more government or internal type applications rather than the next google earth ) |
| 15:42:57 | sigq: | osgeofeed: Ticket #125 ( task closed ): File upload capability for web docs <http://trac.osgeo.org/osgeo/ticket/125#comment:15> |
| 16:44:25 | : | * FrankW waits for the next headline: "Google Earth used by Terrorists to find nearby Starbucks!" |
| 17:41:08 | tbowden: | just reading the logs wrt the marketing debate. Several points of interest: The "trustworthy" aspect that was mentioned I agree with completely. |
| 17:41:08 | tbowden: | Some other "buzzwords" to go with that: solid, reliable, stable, dependable. These are all attributes that are ascribed to the proprietary offerings ( right or wrong ). In my experience they are the opposite of "risky" which is how geofoss is often seen ( right or wrong ). We need to work on that I think |
| 17:42:06 | FrankW: | tbowden: right |
| 17:42:34 | tbowden: | only like everyone else I'm not entirely sure who we should be selling the trust message to. |
| 17:42:57 | tbowden: | the "money bags/decision makers" are the big fish, but the hardest to catch I think |
| 17:43:12 | tbowden: | do we go the traditional linux infiltration route |
| 17:43:20 | FrankW: | I would think they are the people to sell the "foss4g is ready for the big time" message to. |
| 17:43:35 | FrankW: | While the smaller/technical fish want more detailed information what the projects do. |
| 17:43:56 | tbowden: | and go by stealth more or less and gradually work in from the edge |
| 17:44:20 | FrankW: | I would say that has been the traditional foss4g approach. |
| 17:44:28 | FrankW: | And one that will no doubt continue. |
| 17:44:30 | tbowden: | and then we're in a situation of "we've been in your enterprise for ages, you just didn't know it" |
| 17:44:37 | FrankW: | But surely we have OSGeo to push from the top down. |
| 17:45:05 | tbowden: | yes, but I'm not sure if that should be osgeo money or foss vendor money |
| 17:45:18 | tbowden: | I assume we make a distinction? maybe not |
| 17:45:42 | FrankW: | I think it is sponsor money, and a significant portion of our sponsors are essentially foss vendors. |
| 17:46:06 | tbowden: | I'm unclear as to what will get the best returns- targeting the techs or business decision makers |
| 17:46:38 | tbowden: | true FrankW |
| 17:46:57 | FrankW: | I'm a bit wishy-washy on that too, but I do think the trust/reliability type message is mainly for the decision makers. |
| 17:47:02 | FrankW: | ( such a nebulous term ) |
| 17:47:41 | tbowden: | I'm starting to think we should hold back on the marketing kit till we get more consensus on that |
| 17:47:56 | tbowden: | at least till we can target things a bit better |
| 17:49:27 | FrankW: | I don't think there is anything wrong with producing a set of marketing material that supported the "message to decision makers" now, and deciding later we also want material for "message to techies". |
| 17:49:30 | FrankW: | But, I could be wrong. |
| 17:49:41 | tbowden: | Maybe we do need to put more effort into the corporate brochureware side of things to target that non tech level |
| 17:49:55 | FrankW: | ultimately we want a bunch of white papers, case studies and so forth that help to support both things. |
| 17:50:18 | tbowden: | most of our brochures to date have been project based, which completely misses this mark |
| 17:50:39 | FrankW: | right ... not a terrible thing to have, but not addressing the broader messaging. |
| 17:50:42 | tbowden: | yes, white papers that are solutions based, not software based |
| 17:50:57 | : | * crschmidt likes the openlayers gallery a lot for that |
| 17:51:28 | FrankW: | I wonder if we are brave enough to offer a "ten fallacies about open source geospatial software" handout. |
| 17:51:29 | tbowden: | Personally I think the Autodesk model of marketing is a good template for us |
| 17:51:41 | tbowden: | if only because that's one I've been exposed to |
| 17:51:53 | tbowden: | cool idea FrankW! |
| 17:51:57 | FrankW: | Explain that model ( please ) |
| 17:52:21 | tbowden: | Well, it doesn't focus so much on software functionality, as workflow |
| 17:52:44 | tbowden: | hmm, have to think about that a bit to work out how to spell it out |
| 17:52:55 | tbowden: | just been a bit of an ephemeral thing for me so far |
| 17:53:29 | FrankW: | I think it makes sense to diagram out a few workflows, and show what packages might fit into it. |
| 17:53:42 | tbowden: | project lifecycle, moving data from design, develop, through facility management, to redevelopment. |
| 17:53:57 | tbowden: | the sort of thing Geoff Zeiss talks about |
| 17:54:02 | FrankW: | Hmm, I'm not sure how we would handle that well. |
| 17:54:33 | FrankW: | I often fail to follow Geoff's explanations. I'm a bit to down-in-the-trenches. |
| 17:54:48 | FrankW: | to -> too |
| 17:55:10 | tbowden: | forget the specific packages ( at least not focus too much on them ), I think. That's a tech detail that I don't think helps the sales message so much to our target audience |
| 17:55:36 | tbowden: | yes, Geoff is a bit hard to follow from a tech pov, but he's not selling to techs |
| 17:56:18 | FrankW: | Geoff is often trying to sell a new way of working ... I'd be happy to sell folks a new set of software to do what they do now. |
| 17:56:20 | tbowden: | he's selling to business leaders, and what he's selling is Autodesks understanding and competence in providing solutions to whatever your specific problem is |
| 17:56:51 | FrankW: | Or perhaps a new set of software to do what they already understand that they want to do. |
| 17:56:56 | tbowden: | If we are to target the business leaders/ decision makers, maybe we should be asking his advice as to how we can market |
| 17:57:20 | tbowden: | we understand how to talk tech talk. That's easy |
| 17:57:33 | FrankW: | I'm sure he would be willing to be helpful. I'm just not confident we could capitalize on his advice. But it couldn't hurt ( much ) to ask. |
| 17:57:36 | tbowden: | it's the language of high level business leaders we're not speaking |
| 17:58:40 | tbowden: | Personally, I'm still waiting for the Red Hat of Geospatial to rise from the landscape. |
| 17:59:11 | jgarnett: | hi all |
| 17:59:18 | tbowden: | At one point, I figured Refractions, DMSolutions and one of the European mobs should have got together, found a bunch of VC and gone hard at it. |
| 17:59:29 | : | * tbowden waves at jgarnett |
| 17:59:55 | jgarnett: | is this a meeting or just a facinating discussion |
| 17:59:58 | tbowden: | but I don't think anything like that is on the cards |
| 18:00:01 | FrankW: | just a discussion |
| 18:00:02 | tbowden: | discussion |
| 18:00:38 | FrankW: | I'm not sure foss4g is an easy space to earn substantial money just at the infrastructure level ( providing vetted software components ). |
| 18:00:41 | crschmidt: | Claude actually said during foss4g-jp that he was glad that c2c hadn't gone for vc |
| 18:00:52 | FrankW: | so I'm not confivinced a redhat analog makes sense. |
| 18:01:18 | jgarnett: | tbowden perhaps; although I am keen on the osgeo banner taking on some of that scope |
| 18:01:39 | FrankW: | Right, I'd hope OSGeo can provide some of that legitimacy. |
| 18:02:02 | jgarnett: | ( I am actually doing something now that is topical; gathering up slides for the OSDC tomorrow |
| 18:02:06 | jgarnett: | where I have a speaking slot |
| 18:02:12 | FrankW: | OSDC? |
| 18:02:18 | jgarnett: | and I cannot for the life of me find screen snaps of the different osgeo apps ) |
| 18:02:29 | jgarnett: | http://www.osdc.com.au/2008/index.html |
| 18:02:33 | sigq: | Title: Open Source Developers' Conference 2008 ( at www.osdc.com.au ) |
| 18:02:46 | tbowden: | There should be heaps of money flowing in this space. Look how some of the proprietary offerings are raking it in ( by all accounts ). I'm sure there is room for a red hat in our space |
| 18:02:52 | jgarnett: | Mark Leslie ( a postgis committer ) was supposed to do the talk; but he is one of the many stuck in Thailand |
| 18:03:14 | tbowden: | ouch. |
| 18:03:24 | : | * FrankW has often wished there was a credible "Geospatial Developers Conference". |
| 18:03:55 | jgarnett: | so yeah I start with the first program on our list http://www.osgeo.org/deegree and 30mins later still cannot find screen snaps; it would of been faster to install it myself by now. |
| 18:03:57 | sigq: | Title: deegree Info Sheet | OSGeo.org ( at www.osgeo.org ) |
| 18:04:09 | tbowden: | maybe we need to divide foss4g into two; dev conf, and business conf instead of tying the two together |
| 18:04:17 | tbowden: | not sure it's a good idea though |
| 18:04:20 | tbowden: | just a thought |
| 18:04:23 | jgarnett: | tbowden that was actually the point of the code sprint in 2007 |
| 18:04:41 | FrankW: | well, my wish was for a geospatial developer conference that included both proprietary and open source in one. |
| 18:04:49 | jgarnett: | ( mostly to prevent the developers circling the laptops and ignoring the confernece as seen on the edges of 2006 ) |
| 18:07:15 | tbowden: | crschmidt: what was Claude's reasoning re: vc money? |
| 18:15:19 | crschmidt: | I believe it was simply that he thought that growing the company organically had been better for it in the long run |
| 18:15:45 | crschmidt: | They were interested in looking to possibly change that more recently, since they're at a point where a hump has been reached -- they're at about 45 people now, and stepping up would need some amount of investment |
| 18:17:47 | tbowden: | Hmm, can't help thinking vc money along with a partnership/merger with DMSolutions would build the foundations for a strong run at the money. It would give credibility |
| 18:18:19 | tbowden: | of course, I have no idea if that would be at all welcomed by either camp! Pure speculation on my part |
| 18:20:10 | crschmidt: | well, dm solutions has what now, 12 people? it seems like they'd be overmatched in that pairing |
| 18:21:26 | tbowden: | yes, proly not quite big enough. Originally I was figuring in refractions also, but with some of the open source people gone from there, I don't think that makes any sense now ( if it ever did ) |
| 18:21:36 | FrankW: | It is my nature to only be able to see all the ways such an attempt would be a disaster. |
| 18:22:14 | tbowden: | sure, it would not be easy, but I can't help thinking the rewards are there for whoever gets to that scale first |
| 18:23:01 | FrankW: | I'm unconvinced. |
| 18:23:15 | tbowden: | and I'm asking! |
| 18:23:34 | tbowden: | I think we need to find our red hat eventually |
| 18:23:39 | : | * JamesFee just noticed he missed OSGeo logo discussion |
| 18:25:19 | tbowden: | absolutely right, JamesFee. I don't think we know who to sell to or how to sell to them yet. I guess the 'logo' tag can be a proxy for that. |
| 18:25:28 | FrankW: | JamesFee: it's cruel to make fun of OSGeo because a few folks took some initiative on improving the logo! |
| 18:26:05 | JamesFee: | FrankW: I never blogged about the logo, that was Paul |
| 18:26:17 | FrankW: | ok, fair enough. |
| 18:26:27 | tbowden: | Ah, but James, you gave it visibility! |
| 18:26:33 | tbowden: | ;- ) |
| 18:26:46 | tbowden: | And maybe we should be thankful for that |
| 18:27:16 | JamesFee: | I mentioned logo to Paul because it was shorter to type than case studies on my iPhone |
| 18:27:26 | JamesFee: | hell I can't remember what I emailed him |
| 18:27:43 | tbowden: | Ah, how our environment shapes us and our discussions! |
| 18:28:39 | : | * JamesFee can't even remember the context of the quote Paul pulled from my comments. |
| 18:28:52 | tbowden: | I came across some tag line years ago from the architects: First we shape our environment, then our environment shapes us |
| 18:31:02 | JamesFee: | Personally I'd just assume continue converting ESRI Web APIs to OpenLayers and Oracle Spatial to PostGIS. |
| 18:31:13 | JamesFee: | Heck maybe write a case study about it. *cough* |
| 18:31:55 | FrankW: | JamesFee: that is your suggestion for what we ought to be doing? Or your analysis of what we are doing? |
| 18:32:27 | JamesFee: | If I want others to write case studies, the least I can do is get one myself done. |
| 18:33:52 | JamesFee: | FrankW: there has to be case studies out there wanting to get out and tell the world how wonderful they are. |
| 18:34:14 | JamesFee: | I personally think OSGeo should help those who want to write case studies |
| 18:34:35 | FrankW: | I agree, but so far few volunteers have thrown themself into that task in a productive way. |
| 18:34:37 | TylerM: | We have these articles in geoconnexion magazine ( 17+ ) and a bunch in the journal.. I think they just need to get promoted a bit more. |
| 18:34:59 | FrankW: | I would not mind marketing funds being used to make it happen if it could be done well. |
| 18:35:01 | TylerM: | I'm already thinking of a few ways to get them more front and centre |
| 18:35:02 | tbowden: | Actually, a bunch of case study brochures in the form of Problem, solution, benefits aimed one notch above the technical would go down well with the audience at most conf's and consulting firms would find them very handy I suspect. |
| 18:35:23 | tbowden: | It's something Autodesk does well. Part of what I mentioned before FrankW |
| 18:35:34 | FrankW: | I'm in favor! |
| 18:35:59 | TylerM: | I could easily see some authors willing to refactor their longer works, or a few editors to help do it. |
| 18:36:04 | crschmidt: | JamesFee: The biggest problem that I have with writing case studies is that very few of the clients who are using OpenLayers in their solution actually *have* another choice. |
| 18:36:14 | crschmidt: | ( of the ones I work with ) |
| 18:36:15 | TylerM: | Either way, volunteer organisations can expect to do everything equally as well : ) |
| 18:36:25 | TylerM: | err cannot : ) |
| 18:36:31 | FrankW: | TylerM: I think you need one person to tune the case studies into a reasonably consistent form and size. |
| 18:36:35 | crschmidt: | One o the key aspects of the PostGIS case studies is that they considered multiple solutions, and chose to go with PostGIS. |
| 18:36:38 | tbowden: | so maybe a bunch of that marketing money would be well spend in this direction. |
| 18:36:58 | tbowden: | I'll talk to a marketing expert I'll be seeing in a few hours, and get some ideas |
| 18:37:02 | TylerM: | FrankW: yes, it would help |
| 18:37:35 | TylerM: | i'm reluctant to put too many barriers up to those writing articles for the journal though, I'm thrilled to ge t the ones we've got : ) |
| 18:37:55 | tbowden: | crschmidt: I don't think the lack of choice is an issue with the marketing. It helps build trust if people are using it successfully even if they didn't have a choice |
| 18:38:04 | FrankW: | TylerM: I'm not suggesting this for the journal - but instead for handout sized case studies. |
| 18:38:08 | TylerM: | Lots of ideas for writing case studies, but i'm still waiting to see some volunteers that like doing that : ) |
| 18:38:24 | TylerM: | FrankW: sure, I just know several authors that do have good examples to share |
| 18:38:59 | tbowden: | I don't think the osgeo tech crowd are good ones for writing the case studies. They may know the facts, but aren't good at packaging the message for non tech audiences that have different concerns. |
| 18:39:04 | JamesFee: | crschmidt: I'll write one about how we converted a MapObjects IMS site to ArcGIS Server/OpenLayers and why we picked OL. Project starts up in about a month |
| 18:39:13 | TylerM: | tbowden: you could be right |
| 18:39:23 | : | * JamesFee wonders if crschmidt: even knows what MapObjects is |
| 18:39:47 | tbowden: | maybe we just need to pay someone to take the facts and package them in the marketing message for us |
| 18:39:49 | FrankW: | Is MapObjects a deprecated ESRI web mapping technology? |
| 18:40:08 | JamesFee: | yea, VB6 in all its greatness |
| 18:40:27 | tbowden: | Don't they have a js api now? |
| 18:40:39 | tbowden: | and a bunch of stuff around that? |
| 18:40:47 | FrankW: | Is VB6 one of the languages you can/could write .asp pages in? |
| 18:40:49 | JamesFee: | JavaScript, .NET, Java, and Flex |
| 18:40:54 | FrankW: | I'm not very microsoft-web-savvy. |
| 18:41:00 | tbowden: | Shows how much I know about ESRI web tech |
| 18:41:14 | JamesFee: | FrankW: no, but it was used in conjunction with ASP |
| 18:41:35 | JamesFee: | just know it was very ugly |
| 18:42:00 | TylerM: | tbowden: not a bad idea.. I think a lot could be done with me and a marketing helper in a room for a day |
| 18:42:09 | TylerM: | lots of detailed info available to work through. |
| 18:43:38 | TylerM: | Just note that we _do_ have case studies coming out our ears via the journal and magazine articles.. but obviously now we're talking about making them more generally readable/applicable. |
| 18:43:49 | crschmidt: | tbowden: yes, ESRI has the world's most advanced Geographic RESTful API |
| 18:44:17 | : | * FrankW isn't sure how seriously to take crschmidt's statement. |
| 18:44:38 | crschmidt: | I'm entirely serious. ESRI has completely bypassed open source in the RESTful API world |
| 18:44:47 | TylerM: | I'll defend the work of journal authors against anyone saying their writing wasn't worth the time ;- ) They've put a lot of work into it... obivously I just need to get the word out a bit more about their efforts : ) |
| 18:45:02 | crschmidt: | Sadly, they're charging a premium for it, that means that it's extremely rare to find anyone sharing data via the ArcGIS Server APIs |
| 18:45:11 | crschmidt: | But man, are they beautiful when you can find them |
| 18:45:49 | JamesFee: | Unlike most of ESRI's initiatives, their REST API is well thought out and very logical. I love how you can discover the services via urls. |
| 18:45:55 | FrankW: | TylerM: I don't think anyone is attacking the work of the journal authors. But the lesson I take from the case studies on the postgis site is that they need to be tightly focused on the "case study" format. |
| 18:46:27 | TylerM: | No, not attacking directly, but it's easy to ignore : ) |
| 18:46:32 | TylerM: | heck, I forgot we had them :D |
| 18:46:32 | FrankW: | crschmidt: ok, cool. I had heard good things about it via JamesFee's blog. |
| 18:49:59 | JamesFee: | FrankW: All I know about OSGeo an REST is what I read in Planet OSGeo. Seems very SOAPy if you ask me. ; ) |
| 18:50:47 | : | * FrankW is not excited about the whole SOAP vs. REST discussion, not being a web guy. |
| 18:51:22 | JamesFee: | I suppose someone needs to be under the car fixing the thing while we put new bumper stickers on the back |
| 18:52:18 | : | * JamesFee is not like this websense thing on the hotel wifi |
| 18:57:27 | : | * tbowden is currently consulting with a marketing expert wrt OSGeo's market message... |
| 18:59:16 | TylerM: | thx tim, let's chat later when ready |
| 19:00:46 | TylerM: | daniele from osaka would be good to get an opinion on too.. perhaps you could just follow up with ideas to the marketing list. |
| 19:01:44 | TylerM: | tbowden: we also have these http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/GeoConnexion_Column |
| 19:01:46 | sigq: | Title: GeoConnexion Column - OSGeo Wiki ( at wiki.osgeo.org ) |
| 19:02:10 | TylerM: | quite the famous writers : ) |
| 19:03:44 | jgarnett: | tbowden++ |
| 20:31:19 | : | * tbowden is thinking about FrankW's 10 fallacies of geofoss and wondering what they might be? poor interoperability, no vendor support, no product road map, unproven in mission critical environments, what else? It would be a good document to have. Maybe we need to look at cases where foss has lost to proprietary offerings and see what arguments were used there justify not using foss solutions. |
| 20:32:36 | FrankW: | The mapwindow geoconnexxion article starts out with a few of them. |
| 20:32:46 | FrankW: | "open source is all about command lines" |
| 20:32:50 | FrankW: | "open source is only for linux" |
| 20:50:31 | tbowden: | http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/10_fallacies_of_geofoss Edit as you see fit ;- ) Maybe we can get a decent 1 page brochure out of it for trade shows/conf's etc |
| 20:50:32 | sigq: | Title: 10 fallacies of geofoss - OSGeo Wiki ( at wiki.osgeo.org ) |