| 03:37:27 | : | * mauricio_ is away: Gone away for now |
| 03:58:16 | : | * mauricio_ is back. |
| 05:11:56 | : | * mauricio_ is away: Gone away for now |
| 05:26:36 | : | * mauricio_ is back. |
| 07:59:51 | TylerM: | FrankW: I've got the geomajas incubation application almost done being moved into trac |
| 08:03:18 | FrankW: | ah cool, thanks. |
| 08:03:27 | FrankW: | I'm glad I put it off. |
| 08:04:19 | sigq: | osgeofeed: Ticket #506 ( task created ): OSGeo incubation - Geomajas <http://trac.osgeo.org/osgeo/ticket/506> |
| 08:15:40 | yancho: | guys, anyone has some good pointers on how to transform 800meters to degrees please? I am working with EPSG:4326 ( GPS coordinates ) thanks! |
| 08:16:04 | crschmidt: | It depends where on the globe you are. |
| 08:16:10 | crschmidt: | and direction, and everything else. |
| 08:16:32 | yancho: | Malta, Europe |
| 08:17:19 | FrankW: | It also depends on how accurate you want to be. |
| 08:17:33 | yancho: | hmm so its not something which can be translated using some predefined formula? |
| 08:17:34 | pramsey: | degrees are spherical coordinates, there is no "real" conversion, only degrees ( ha ha! ) of wrongness |
| 08:18:00 | FrankW: | There are lots of possible formulas. |
| 08:18:18 | FrankW: | The simplest is to divide by 10000000 and multiple by 90. |
| 08:18:28 | yancho: | FrankW, nothing big |
| 08:18:30 | FrankW: | Which is reasonable accurate near the equator. |
| 08:18:46 | yancho: | 10million right? |
| 08:18:51 | FrankW: | right |
| 08:19:07 | FrankW: | it is roughly 10 million meters from equator to pole, which is 90 degrees. |
| 08:19:17 | FrankW: | In fact, this was how the meter was originally defined. |
| 08:19:29 | yancho: | ow ic! |
| 08:20:03 | crschmidt: | FrankW: learn something new every day! |
| 08:20:12 | spacedman: | Conversion is much easier with nautical miles : ) |
| 08:20:55 | nhv: | for 800 meters use a local stereographic projection centered at one of your points this will give a very accurate result |
| 08:21:48 | yancho: | nhv no idea what you mean by stereographic projection .. gotta search for it : ) |
| 08:22:06 | crschmidt: | yancho: For a less accurate measurement, I'd recommend simply following frank's recommendation. |
| 08:22:22 | FrankW: | It does depend on the need for precision. |
| 08:22:54 | yancho: | this is just a random project i invented with no particular use in real life scenario .. i'm randomly generating gps points ; ) so a bit of meters here and there definately won't matter ; ) |
| 08:23:51 | nhv: | in that case see the definition of a nautical mile eg a minute is a mile := ) |
| 08:24:02 | FrankW: | TylerM: were you able to add Trevor to the paypal cc: list? I'm not sure how this works. |
| 08:24:34 | yancho: | nhv, so u suggest: meters > nautical miles > minutes > degrees ? |
| 08:24:44 | TylerM: | hi frankw - yes, working on that last night.. i think we'll have it licked today |
| 08:25:15 | : | * nhv suggests google( Nautical Mile ) |
| 08:25:22 | FrankW: | If a nautical mile is 1 minute then by definition there is no fixed relationship between meters and nautical miles. |
| 08:27:23 | : | * nhv repeats his suggestion :- ) |
| 08:28:32 | crschmidt: | yancho: approximately .0072 degrees is 800 meters at the equator, btw. |
| 08:28:59 | yancho: | yes crschmidt that i got it : ) trying to find some more info on the nautical miles thingy now : ) cheers : ) |
| 08:29:47 | pramsey: | I minute of latitude, FrankW |
| 08:29:57 | FrankW: | ah |
| 08:30:12 | pramsey: | Charts sometimes lack a scale bar, because you can use the vertical graticule instead. |
| 08:31:16 | FrankW: | 10000000 / ( 90*60 ) ->1851 |
| 08:31:34 | FrankW: | proj -lu |grep Nautical -> kmi 1852.0 International Nautical Mile |
| 08:31:41 | pramsey: | http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&q=1%2F0.000539956803&aq=f&oq=&aqi= |
| 08:31:42 | sigq: | Title: 1/0.000539956803 - Google Search ( at www.google.com ) |
| 08:31:45 | FrankW: | So essentially the same as my suggestion. |
| 08:32:03 | nhv: | yes by definition :- ) sorry |
| 08:32:27 | yancho: | FrankW, u doing 90*60 to convert 90 degrees to minutes? |
| 08:32:52 | FrankW: | yancho: yes |
| 08:33:33 | : | * nhv still suggests using a local stereographic as this will account for the ellipsoid variance with latitude |
| 08:33:52 | nhv: | when distance is small enough |
| 08:34:35 | FrankW: | that accuracy is only really useful if yango understand whether he wants degrees of latitude or longitude. |
| 08:35:08 | FrankW: | If he doesn't know direction then increased accuracy would be self-defeating. |
| 08:35:10 | nhv: | true but spherical arc distance can be expressed in degrees |
| 08:35:51 | nhv: | which is the unit I like to think in not some arbritrary projected plane :- ) |
| 08:36:02 | crschmidt: | he's picking a random number for testing purposes, accuracy is almost entirely irrelevant. |
| 08:36:09 | crschmidt: | if he's* |
| 08:43:36 | yancho: | nhv, im reading on the conversions but as crschmidt said since i'm just doing for testing purposed all that calculation is way too much .. but thanks for the info : ) |
| 11:52:03 | FrankW: | TylerM: It would seem rather facile to me to decide that women must just not being interested in contributing to open source projects and that no introspection is required on our part. |
| 11:53:11 | TylerM: | Sure.. that's my point about making sure you don't have barriers to entry ( real or perceived ). |
| 11:53:49 | FrankW: | I didn't see anything in your last email about addressing barriers to entry. |
| 11:53:58 | FrankW: | Perhaps I lost too much context. |
| 11:54:29 | FrankW: | Taken on it's own "if fewer women are involved I just assume they aren't as interested." seems inadequate. |
| 11:54:51 | TylerM: | What are some of the other reasons people think then? |
| 11:54:57 | TylerM: | that's just me... |
| 11:55:04 | : | * nhv was very tempted to suggest starting a male only list |
| 11:55:08 | TylerM: | so i'm naturally curious what others believe are barriers |
| 11:55:29 | FrankW: | The suggestion of the cartoon is that "we male techies" may sometimes scare off females though I'm not sure how valid that is |
| 11:55:30 | TylerM: | and also what is an 'optimal' male:female ratio. |
| 11:55:36 | : | <_wolf_> we had a lot of talk about this in the GSoC mentor summit |
| 11:55:40 | gsherman: | this has been discussed at length elsewhere, including on the gsoc list |
| 11:55:41 | FrankW: | There are lots of reasons posited in various venues. |
| 11:55:47 | : | <_wolf_> let me dig out a link to the session notes |
| 11:56:01 | : | * aghisla recalls infinte threads on debian women ml |
| 11:56:08 | FrankW: | The issue is certainly not unique to OSGeo, and is fairly widespread in the IT world. |
| 11:56:08 | TylerM: | i have no problem with a women list : ) |
| 11:56:22 | TylerM: | not just IT world naturally too |
| 11:56:41 | TylerM: | but I think it's vaporware unless there are real barriers to participation |
| 11:56:49 | TylerM: | that's aftera all what people want, right, equality |
| 11:57:00 | : | * nhv doesn't either but likes to feel the waters about male only thingies |
| 11:57:03 | TylerM: | aghisla: infinite, i can imagine : ) |
| 11:57:13 | FrankW: | My concern is that your statement seemed to suggest we don't even need to think about it, we should just assume it is something intrinsic in female nature. |
| 11:57:53 | TylerM: | I'm not sure how i'd feel if people started saying we need more male 30 somethings involved in xyz project... but how about letting me make my conclusion. |
| 11:57:54 | : | <_wolf_> http://gsoc-wiki.osuosl.org/index.php/Sunday_Sessions_2009/Reversing_the_Trend:_Women_in_Open_Source |
| 11:57:55 | sigq: | Title: Sunday Sessions 2009/Reversing the Trend: Women in Open Source - Google Summer of Code Mentor Wiki ( at gsoc-wiki.osuosl.org ) |
| 11:58:03 | aghisla: | well I'm conscious that "women in computing" topic can expand to "women place on earth" |
| 11:58:10 | TylerM: | now, if a woman was making similar statements on the list, maybe I would have just kept my nose out ;- ) |
| 11:58:58 | TylerM: | i'm sure I sound stupidly simplistic, sorry about that |
| 11:59:02 | FrankW: | If open source geospatial was dramatically dominated by cubans, it would be fair to ask why aren't there more americans and canadians involved. |
| 11:59:05 | aghisla: | imho it's not a matter of obliging project to involve women |
| 11:59:15 | aghisla: | just to have 1:1 ratios |
| 11:59:31 | aghisla: | FrankW: +1 |
| 11:59:31 | : | <_wolf_> we are quite gender neutral here, but it might be that we are still unknowingly a "brotherhood". What do you say aghisla? |
| 11:59:35 | TylerM: | but if you go down the road of trrying to identify special interest groups that are over/under represented ( by what standard )... it's a slippery slope : ) |
| 11:59:51 | aghisla: | oh absolutely, TylerM |
| 12:00:01 | FrankW: | TylerM: on the other hand, I disagree. |
| 12:00:26 | aghisla: | that's not a reason not to care about minoritues |
| 12:00:35 | TylerM: | precisely : ) |
| 12:00:41 | FrankW: | Or at least I would consider it a normal part of promotional activities to find what part of your potential market/contributorbase you are failing to reach. |
| 12:00:47 | : | <_wolf_> I do know that there are a lot of women in geosciences, but why are so few of them contributing to open source? |
| 12:00:58 | TylerM: | fine questions |
| 12:01:23 | TylerM: | but if you notice a problem it still comes down to... "what are we going to DO about it?" |
| 12:01:39 | : | <_wolf_> well we did start the osgeo-women ml |
| 12:01:48 | : | <_wolf_> and started talking to systers |
| 12:01:49 | FrankW: | I personally hoping for some useful advice from women. :- ) But I try not to dismiss the issue out of hand. |
| 12:02:01 | TylerM: | and from my understanding, at least in our country, we don't try to force others to do anything : ) just keep inviting and remove barriers to equality. |
| 12:02:24 | aghisla: | remove barriers - this is important |
| 12:02:28 | : | * _wolf_ nods |
| 12:02:32 | FrankW: | Well, i'm not suggesting strong arming. |
| 12:02:33 | TylerM: | after all, we are hiring people : ) |
| 12:02:42 | TylerM: | err |
| 12:02:42 | aghisla: | they can be subtile, like stereotypes and education |
| 12:02:45 | TylerM: | we are not hiring people : ) |
| 12:03:05 | : | <_wolf_> TylerM: well in a way we are |
| 12:03:18 | : | <_wolf_> I'm sure all of our projects would welcome more developers |
| 12:03:26 | TylerM: | yeah i'm sure |
| 12:03:27 | FrankW: | I'm just concerned that if in your special position ( as ED ) if you give an impression of dismissiveness, it may be damaging. |
| 12:03:52 | TylerM: | but we are built on the foundational premise that *everyone* is welcome.. |
| 12:04:03 | TylerM: | unlike historic issues in gov/industry hiring practises, etc |
| 12:04:10 | FrankW: | But how well do we make everyone welcome? |
| 12:04:19 | aghisla: | to make things clear, he osgeo-women chapter was not a response to discrimination, for sure not from me |
| 12:04:40 | FrankW: | It's clear enough that as an international foundation we are still not reaching out to non-english speakers all that effectively though we do make an effort via local chapters. |
| 12:04:54 | TylerM: | aghisla: i understood.. just when i saw the mention of a 'problem' I decided to share my thoughts. |
| 12:04:58 | : | <_wolf_> TylerM: studies have proved it's not enough to only welcome everyone |
| 12:05:18 | FrankW: | I, for one, tend not to be particularly welcoming to VB6 programmers. |
| 12:05:23 | TylerM: | FrankW: sure.. others should pipe up then.. |
| 12:05:23 | : | <_wolf_> there is a lot of bad things happening over on the Internet, which keeps women away from projects like ours |
| 12:05:24 | FrankW: | But I feel a bit bad about that. |
| 12:05:38 | TylerM: | hopefully I can share my personal opinion about things without it being taken as 'official' :S |
| 12:05:58 | gregglind: | TylerM, sorry to be off-topic, but can you point to your hiring page / position? |
| 12:07:02 | TylerM: | hi gregglind .. not sure what you mean.. my job description? |
| 12:07:03 | : | <_wolf_> gregglind: not osgeo specific, but take a look here too: http://jobs.gislounge.com/ |
| 12:07:05 | sigq: | Title: Geospatial Jobs GIS Lounge | Just another WordPress weblog ( at jobs.gislounge.com ) |
| 12:07:26 | gregglind: | TylerM, I *misread*, you're *not* hiring poele. |
| 12:07:35 | TylerM: | yeah, sorry, my typo |
| 12:07:45 | gregglind: | my read-o, actually |
| 12:07:51 | TylerM: | we do have a small mailing list for jobs though, in case you are interested in following it |
| 12:07:54 | : | <_wolf_> gregglind: we are not *hiring* but we do welcome help :D |
| 12:08:03 | TylerM: | yes, always : ) |
| 12:08:54 | TylerM: | _wolf_: I'm curious on what more you can do than 'welcome' people and make sure there are no barriers. |
| 12:09:38 | TylerM: | I see this question as so much bigger than just gender/nationality, etc.. |
| 12:09:49 | TylerM: | as Frank pointed out even programming language, etc... |
| 12:10:05 | TylerM: | I think it's an excellent point for discussion |
| 12:11:26 | aghisla: | TylerM: IMHO if you, inside OSGeo, feel comfortable and felt no barriers when coming in, that's not the whole story. OSGeo-women is meant to be a place, for women in this case, to help finding and braking barriers |
| 12:11:32 | aghisla: | ( breaking |
| 12:11:59 | TylerM: | cool by me |
| 12:12:15 | : | <_wolf_> TylerM: Let me try some sort of an analogy: well is you say yes anybody is welcome, all the social kids will come and hang out, while the shy guys keep away and do other things. But if you go out to these "shy" people and say hey, welcome, this is a nice place for you too, you will get a better mix, or something like that |
| 12:12:15 | aghisla: | like systers ml is - they mention barriers I wasn't even aware of |
| 12:12:37 | anyren: | I think you ( broadly, not you specifically per say ) need to understand the barriers in question. it's one thing ( and a good one ) to welcome people and encourage their participatio and it's another to change the environment to make it actually friendly |
| 12:12:59 | aghisla: | +1 |
| 12:13:25 | TylerM: | sounds good |
| 12:13:44 | : | * pramsey tries to find the reference to the numbers he found so disturbing. |
| 12:13:56 | anyren: | http://infotrope.net/blog/2009/07/25/standing-out-in-the-crowd-my-oscon-keynote/ |
| 12:14:00 | sigq: | Title: Standing out in the crowd: my OSCON keynote | Infotropism ( at infotrope.net ) |
| 12:14:04 | pramsey: | Basically it was that the % of women in IT was about 10x higher than the % of women in OSS. |
| 12:14:14 | TylerM: | _wolf_: got it.. so in that case the "shy" folks weren't interested because it wasn't their kind of thing... until they met some more cool people : ) |
| 12:14:15 | gregglind: | so, to pounce on anyren ( with whom I've talked about this a lot ), it's hard for some people to recognize what friendly means. |
| 12:14:50 | : | <_wolf_> yeah or it was their thing, but too many social dudes about, are intimidating |
| 12:14:56 | : | <_wolf_> it's easier to stay away |
| 12:15:07 | gregglind: | and in the python class anyren and I taught, we specifically asked ( for example ), smart people we knew whether they were interested, even if they weren't programmers. |
| 12:15:17 | pramsey: | Anyhow, since as TylerM says we aren't hiring, the issues we have to work on are much harder. They are cultural. If even this guy has a hard time... http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/25/us/politics/25vibe.html |
| 12:15:22 | sigq: | Title: The New York Times > Log In ( at www.nytimes.com ) |
| 12:15:29 | gregglind: | and if you want contributors, you might have to grow them yourselves, alas. |
| 12:15:59 | gregglind: | keep lists of starter projects, have good build documentation, etc. |
| 12:16:18 | : | <_wolf_> well that is another reason for doing summer of code right |
| 12:16:34 | : | <_wolf_> we can get 20 new contributors per year through SoC |
| 12:16:54 | aghisla: | pramsey:culture a big part of the issue indeed |
| 12:16:54 | TylerM: | I'm still convinced by most of the discussion that it's all about being "interested".. or not. No one is interested in joining a gang of idiots.. and some personalities don't like to work with others..etc. But if there are ( real or perceived ) barriers then I can see how that affects things too. |
| 12:17:41 | TylerM: | I'd sure like to hear fro *anyone* who is interested but feels unwelcome.. |
| 12:17:45 | pramsey: | Come to think if it, culture might be the whole issue. One of the things that makes OSS interesting/fun is the socialization with one's peers, and if the peer culture is predominantly male, losing that part of the fun means all you have left is the code. |
| 12:18:00 | TylerM: | could be |
| 12:18:31 | TylerM: | It can be personalities too |
| 12:19:19 | pramsey: | From the NYT article: [Obama] presides over a White House rife with fist-bumping young men who call each other “dude” and testosterone-brimming personalities like http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/e/rahm_emanuel/index.html?inline=nyt-per, the often-profane chief of staff; http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/lawrence_h_summers/index.html?inline=nyt-per, the brash economic adviser; and |
| 12:19:19 | pramsey: | http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/g/robert_gibbs/index.html?inline=nyt-per, the press secretary, who habitually speaks in sports metaphors. |
| 12:19:20 | sigq: | Title: Rahm Emanuel News - The New York Times ( at topics.nytimes.com ) |
| 12:19:22 | sigq: | Title: Robert Gibbs News - The New York Times ( at topics.nytimes.com ) |
| 12:19:43 | pramsey: | Hum, fun paste. Anyways, personalities == culture |
| 12:20:08 | TylerM: | I'm thinking personality types too.. |
| 12:20:21 | TylerM: | are there some correlations with gender? |
| 12:21:03 | aghisla: | don't have statistics for that. |
| 12:21:54 | aghisla: | but I can say that in some countries like Italy, men are expected to be leaders and women to stay somehow in the backstage. |
| 12:22:22 | aghisla: | ok ok it's generalisation but it happens too often to see it. |
| 12:22:40 | gregglind: | well, is that what people want OSS to be like? Some do, some don't. |
| 12:22:59 | gregglind: | I want to work with my friends. My friends are often female. |
| 12:24:42 | aghisla: | gregglind: it's a good progress if we can quantify how many refuse male-oriented OSS by principle, starting by osgeo |
| 12:24:59 | : | * nhv wonders what happened to the concept that the "net" was the grand neutralizer eg you were just a name not necessarily even your given one |
| 12:25:33 | gregglind: | nhv, like many idealistic concepts, it happens differently in practice than execution. |
| 12:25:46 | aghisla: | nhv: it's still alive - unless others get to know you are male or female : ) |
| 12:25:56 | : | <_wolf_> gregglind: well believe it or not, but even OSS there are assholes, some even threaten to kill women who contribute ( it cam up in one of the sessions in the mentor summit ) |
| 12:25:56 | : | * nhv thinks it is more due to things like facebook |
| 12:26:15 | : | * gregglind shocked, shocked, shocked at _wolf_'s assertion |
| 12:26:19 | TylerM: | wow |
| 12:26:28 | aghisla: | D: |
| 12:26:47 | : | * aghisla grins |
| 12:27:04 | miblon: | Time is our friend. I for myself try to convince people all over that contribution and joining comes in soo many forms. OSS will probably not become the biggest thing in our lifetime, but we can plant seeds for the future, isn't that a great feeling? |
| 12:27:07 | aghisla: | being an asshole is gender neutral. |
| 12:27:22 | miblon: | having one is too.. |
| 12:27:55 | miblon: | and an asshole is a conveniënt way to "get relief" |
| 12:27:58 | TylerM: | _wolf_: sounds like someone needs to talk to the police ;- ) |
| 12:28:59 | aghisla: | as Landon wrote it is indeed a pandora box. |
| 12:29:04 | : | <_wolf_> well yes, but since it's the internet it's hard to track peole down |
| 12:32:25 | TylerM: | i prefer faceless IRC nicks ;- ) |
| 12:32:25 | TylerM: | lol |
| 12:33:01 | aghisla: | that's the police's task - I guess that after such episode women would be reassured if all other people agree that it's a isolated point of view and must be avoided. |
| 12:33:04 | : | <_wolf_> well TylerM isn't very faceless ; ) |
| 12:33:20 | TylerM: | _wolf_: but you don't know my _real_ face :o |
| 12:34:03 | : | <_wolf_> true, but I can giess you are a male and IRC info tells me your full name ; ) |
| 12:34:13 | : | <_wolf_> well you could be someone pretending to be you |
| 12:34:24 | : | <_wolf_> pretending to be you ad infinitum |
| 12:34:26 | : | <_wolf_> :P |
| 12:34:42 | nhv: | hmm first hit google( Tyler M OSGEO ) |
| 12:34:46 | aghisla: | I'm a cat then :P |
| 12:34:47 | nhv: | http://images.google.com/images?q=tyler+M+osgeo&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi |
| 12:34:48 | sigq: | Title: tyler M osgeo - Google Images ( at images.google.com ) |
| 12:34:57 | TylerM: | oh no... |
| 12:35:14 | TylerM: | wait.. miblon .. maybe you will sound smarter than me.. don't leave ;- ) |
| 12:35:35 | TylerM: | hmm... would be nice to let a bot take over.. then I can't be held responsible ; ) |
| 12:35:44 | miblon: | ;- ) |
| 12:37:18 | miblon: | TylerM, at least you look more sane on the internet then I do: http://a3.twimg.com/profile_images/526817355/spaceman_bigger.png |
| 12:37:55 | aghisla: | sad that seven is not around! |
| 12:37:58 | TylerM: | heh |
| 12:38:25 | FrankW: | I will say that seven has been more imaginative then me in how to address gender imbalance. |
| 12:40:00 | miblon: | It is not even a matter of gender only. It is a matter of understanding that the more diverse our community is, the better we will be as a whole. |
| 12:40:09 | miblon: | book reading tip: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds |
| 12:40:11 | sigq: | Title: The Wisdom of Crowds - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ( at en.wikipedia.org ) |
| 12:40:12 | : | <_wolf_> miblon: well said! |
| 12:40:47 | FrankW: | miblon: yes, true. I have tried harder to address geographic diversity. |
| 12:40:49 | : | <_wolf_> Another one: Women don't ask |
| 12:41:10 | aghisla: | another example - when you go to the restaurant you don't matter if the cook is a man or a woman. The focus is on the taste of the meal. Should be the same for code. |
| 12:41:18 | : | <_wolf_> http://www.womendontask.com/ |
| 12:41:19 | sigq: | Title: Women Don't Ask: Negotiation and the Gender Divide ( at www.womendontask.com ) |
| 12:41:51 | : | <_wolf_> aghisla: yes, but many cooks do care |
| 12:42:08 | miblon: | If we are open to change, open to cultural differences and indeed welcome them ( as said earlier ) the future will tell how it will make the community prosper |
| 12:42:08 | : | <_wolf_> I hear that it is also a very male dominant industry |
| 12:43:21 | miblon: | this ain't a man vs woman thing. It is a "This is our community" vs "Hey, do you want to come and play" thing |
| 12:43:38 | miblon: | And to go a step further; dominance is a male thing. |
| 12:43:44 | : | <_wolf_> one of the reasons I like OSS is indeed the diversity of culture, and I'm lucky in that the same holdd for my job :D |
| 12:43:55 | : | * miblon agrees with _wolf_ |
| 12:45:05 | : | * _wolf_ agreed with miblon's "This is our community" vs "Hey, do you want to come and play" |
| 12:45:08 | aghisla: | dominance comes when there is no other way to gain respect.. but this can lead very far.. |
| 12:45:10 | miblon: | I am on OpenStreetMap too. they have far more problems then osgeo. First there is the "We are from the UK" culture, then the "We are technically dominant to you" culture and then the "don't mess with our technical ideas just map" culture |
| 12:45:39 | FrankW: | *I* have certainly felt unwelcome in the OSM world. :- ) |
| 12:46:01 | : | * miblon can imagine how FrankW felt.. ;- ) |
| 12:46:17 | FrankW: | I am apparently some sort of paleo-standards-wanker-traditional-gis guy who just doesn't get it. |
| 12:46:23 | : | <_wolf_> *I* talked to the two OSM mentors over at them netor summit. They seemed nice ennough, even if one of them was "that guy" |
| 12:47:05 | : | <_wolf_> FrankW: lol :D actually one of them was very pro standards |
| 12:47:10 | miblon: | It is just that I am far to selfcertain to be stopped to get involved :D it is the "Hey! It smells great in you kitchen, can I come in and taste the food?" mentallity that I always use to invite myself in |
| 12:47:28 | FrankW: | miblon: :- ) |
| 12:47:45 | : | <_wolf_> miblon: you need to infect people with that mentality! :D |
| 12:48:24 | miblon: | _wolf_, don't worry. I am infecting on the dutch soil indeed ;- ) |
| 12:49:53 | miblon: | last weekend I met with a couple of OSM volunteers. They are extremely busy importing from a variety of datasources. I told them; been there, seen that. I don't need osm if I want high quality parcel data. It is the gathering of very divers mapping addicts that absorbs my interest |
| 12:51:13 | : | <_wolf_> :D |
| 12:51:59 | miblon: | As James Surowiecki tries to explain; the sum of all errors is the smallest when the vectors of the individual errors point in the greatest variety of directions |
| 12:52:27 | miblon: | So diversity is essential to the success of crowd initiatives. |
| 12:52:49 | TylerM: | I like humans.. I even love some of them ;- ) |
| 12:52:52 | TylerM: | can we do better, I think so... |
| 12:53:08 | TylerM: | does it mean those cooking in the kitchen are "inadequate".. I'd disagree |
| 12:53:19 | miblon: | TylerM, it doesn't |
| 12:53:20 | TylerM: | I know no one is saying that.. but it becomes somewhat implied : ) |
| 12:53:49 | miblon: | "C'est le tone qui fair la musique" |
| 12:54:39 | TylerM: | it's the sound that makes the music? |
| 12:55:04 | miblon: | Yes, freely translated it is: "It's not what you say, it is how you say it" |
| 12:55:16 | TylerM: | I appreciate diversity too.. but not at the expense of unity of purpose. |
| 12:55:58 | miblon: | I can come in to a community and say "Hey I want in, I can't code and you probably will not want me" or... I can say; I am curious about what is going on, can I simply stay and look at what you are doing? |
| 12:56:01 | TylerM: | I've been in groups that looked so broadly to expand that their current/initial that they left their current group in dust : ) |
| 12:56:09 | TylerM: | yeah cool |
| 12:56:20 | TylerM: | let me rephrase.. : ) |
| 12:57:57 | TylerM: | i've seen groups become so focused on diversity that the group fell apart because those involved felt they were never good enough.. hmm.. that doesn't capture it either. |
| 12:58:11 | TylerM: | oh well, I better get back to work... |
| 12:58:17 | miblon: | ;- ) |
| 12:58:31 | TylerM: | do you have a proverb for that one? : ) |
| 12:58:42 | TylerM: | .. soemthing about water running through your fingers or something? : ) |
| 12:58:51 | TylerM: | I'll post an email to get discussion going on the "barriers to entry" theme... |
| 12:59:20 | TylerM: | that will help others give their feedback. I'm sure many won't want to comment only on the women question : ) |
| 13:00:12 | miblon: | TylerM, As far as I can see, the barriers aren't high at OSGeo. It is more that I have set myself the task to get people to work with the community instead of grabbing their food and running out |
| 13:00:54 | miblon: | I even dare to say that in our country, some companies are creating a *mist* around open source to make it somewhat exclusive to themselves.. |
| 13:01:27 | TylerM: | ah i see |
| 13:02:12 | miblon: | I am no coder. But I can be an evangelist and I can tell people more about what makes Open Source work. That it is not just some source code you grab, but that you can even make it better by the tiniest of contribution |
| 13:03:01 | anyren: | the forbidding mystique |
| 13:03:01 | TylerM: | There... posted my email.. and look forward to the constructive feedback. |
| 13:03:32 | TylerM: | "OSGeo --- Your Magic Open Source Compass" |
| 13:03:35 | TylerM: | heh |
| 13:04:13 | miblon: | Yikes! Need to go to bed. the alarm runs in 5 hours :( |
| 13:04:18 | aghisla: | I can become an osgeo witch :P |
| 13:04:31 | TylerM: | miblon: good to see you milo |
| 13:05:09 | : | <_wolf_> miblon: sleep well |
| 13:05:25 | TylerM: | aghisla aka Morgana Ghisla |
| 13:05:29 | : | <_wolf_> aghisla, that makes me what? Your familir? :P |
| 13:05:39 | : | <_wolf_> familiar that is |
| 13:05:41 | miblon: | thanks people! |
| 13:05:44 | miblon: | Night |
| 13:05:46 | aghisla: | night miblon! |
| 13:06:26 | aghisla: | _wolf_: yes :D |
| 13:06:40 | : | * TylerM backs slowly away... |
| 13:06:41 | : | <_wolf_> \o/ |
| 13:06:58 | : | <_wolf_> so be nice to aghisla or I'll bite! :P |
| 13:07:30 | TylerM: | i still haven't seen your face... so I still assume you're a bot |
| 13:07:37 | TylerM: | or invisible |
| 13:07:42 | TylerM: | :o |
| 13:10:29 | : | <_wolf_> well Hamish has actually seen me, and so has Ari Jolma, but that's it, and neither of them hang out on IRC |
| 13:12:41 | aghisla: | there's a mist around _wolf_'s appearance |
| 13:12:53 | : | <_wolf_> :D |
| 13:13:44 | TylerM: | i hear that he sometimes wears a black robe and mask too |
| 13:14:07 | : | <_wolf_> Who told you that?!?! |
| 13:14:19 | : | <_wolf_> err.. I mean n-noo I d-don't |
| 13:14:27 | : | <_wolf_> ; ) :D |
| 13:14:52 | TylerM: | found photo http://dersheltie.deviantart.com/art/Kendo-Armor-Wolf-104181212 |
| 13:14:54 | sigq: | Title: Kendo Armor Wolf by *derSheltie on deviantART ( at dersheltie.deviantart.com ) |
| 13:15:04 | : | * _wolf_ whistles tunelessly |
| 13:15:30 | : | <_wolf_> TylerM: nice! |
| 13:15:48 | : | <_wolf_> that's pretty close :D |
| 13:15:55 | TylerM: | have to distract myself while writing up minutes from marketing meeting ;- ) |
| 13:16:08 | TylerM: | nice fangs |
| 13:18:51 | TylerM: | i crash firefox way too often :( |
| 13:23:27 | TylerM: | biab.. |
| 13:46:32 | yancho: | thats not very hard to do TylerM :P |
| 13:46:53 | TylerM: | yancho: seems like it got worse after my last upgrade :( |
| 13:46:58 | TylerM: | that'll teach me ; ) |
| 13:47:16 | yancho: | 3.5.5 ? |
| 13:54:02 | TylerM: | wildintellect: any more word on AAG booth helpers. I see early bird booth rate ends tomorrow |
| 13:54:10 | : | * _wolf_ likes to live on the edge: has 3.5.5 on 64 bit firefox on ubuntu 9.04 :P |
| 13:55:30 | TylerM: | hmm no i'm on 3.0.15 :o |
| 13:55:35 | TylerM: | so I'm archaic? |
| 13:55:45 | aghisla: | 3.5.5 on WinXP! |
| 13:55:48 | : | <_wolf_> a crashing archaic :P |
| 13:55:58 | TylerM: | on a mac too |
| 13:56:10 | : | <_wolf_> TylerM: upgrade to 3.5 and it'll get better |
| 13:56:16 | TylerM: | _wolf_: unbuntu.. that's that stable one right? I run sidux : ) |
| 13:56:19 | TylerM: | okay, will do |
| 13:56:53 | : | <_wolf_> TylerM: yup, but 64bit is sometime a surprising challenge |
| 13:57:05 | TylerM: | tell me about it :( |
| 13:57:14 | yancho: | agreed _wolf_ .. to install 3.5 on 64 it wasnt a walk in the park |
| 13:57:14 | TylerM: | just getting skype running was .. fun |
| 13:57:35 | yancho: | it was easy here .. much worse on 9.10 32bit .. infact didnt run at all |
| 13:58:03 | : | <_wolf_> for me it was easy, just downloaded the package and installed it :P |
| 13:58:10 | TylerM: | weird ff didn't prompt me to upgrade |
| 13:58:11 | : | <_wolf_> but some software have issues |
| 13:58:28 | TylerM: | upgraded nov 5th |
| 13:58:33 | : | <_wolf_> TylerM: you're so old it's lost all hope :P |
| 13:58:40 | yancho: | camera drivers weren't easy :\ same camera ran perfectly on 9.04 .. borked on .10 |
| 13:58:43 | TylerM: | I forget if i'm old |
| 13:59:01 | TylerM: | not sure why |
| 13:59:11 | : | <_wolf_> yeah. I haven't dared to upgrade to .10 yet :S |
| 13:59:42 | TylerM: | the only linux upgrade troubles I have involve nvidia :P |
| 14:04:51 | yancho: | u must b lucky in life :P |
| 14:05:07 | TylerM: | sidux has been good to me |
| 14:19:56 | j03lar50n: | does anyone know if fosslc put up the other parts of Paul R.'s keynote from FOSS4G? http://blip.tv/search?q=foss4g+keynote i can only find part 3. found the youtube version of the whole speech, looking for fosslc version( s ). |
| 14:19:57 | sigq: | Title: blip.tv ( since 2005 ) ( at blip.tv ) |
| 14:23:42 | TylerM: | good questions j03.. i'm not sure |
| 14:24:15 | TylerM: | this the part 3 one? http://www.fosslc.org/drupal/node/565 |
| 14:24:17 | sigq: | Title: OSGeo FOSS4G | FOSSLC ( at www.fosslc.org ) |
| 14:24:25 | TylerM: | it's cameron opening |
| 14:26:31 | aghisla: | see you soon all - thanks for chat |
| 15:34:21 | TylerM: | oh no... ff crashed just as i saved marketing minutes :( |
| 15:34:32 | TylerM: | and they were loooong : ) |
| 15:35:18 | TylerM: | actually it's froze while trying to handle an edit in the wiki window |
| 15:35:35 | TylerM: | good time for a break :S |
| 15:40:41 | : | * TylerM reaches for the ff kill button :[... |
| 15:44:09 | TylerM: | wowza - it cached my edits |
| 15:52:18 | crschmidt: | hooray |
| 16:00:34 | TylerM: | whew .. that saved my mental state ; ) |
| 16:00:54 | TylerM: | It's awesome to see such a good 'restore' feature... |
| 16:01:01 | TylerM: | it's not so awesome that I use it everyday ;- ) |
| 16:01:02 | TylerM: | lol |
